Philly SportsCast

Oak +14.5 over NYG
T.B. +15 over PHILA
Ind -3.5 over TEN *

Dave
NE -3 over Den
Mia +2 over NYJ
Indy -3.5 over Tenn*

Derek
NYG -15 over Oak
NYJ +2 over Mia
Hou +5.5 over Ariz*

TFrey:
Atl +2.5 over SF
NE -3 over Den
Car -3.5 over Wash*

EMoney:
Pitt -10.5 over Det
Mia +2 over NYJ
Atl +2.5 over SF

*LOTW

Minn -10.5 over Stl
SF -2.5 over Atl
Indy -3.5 over Tenn*

Poor defensive effort from the Eagles today. Way too many long drives from the Bucs. If not for a couple of gift INTs, this game is a lot closer.

On the flip side – McNabb looked sharp. And since StrongSide likes to make career prognostications after 1 game, I wonder if his opinion of Maclin has changed at all.

BTW, loved watching the Angels knock out Papelbon and the rest of Red Sox Nation. Now the Boston fans can go back to front-running with the Patriots. 10 years ago, those Southies couldn’t name 3 players on the Patriots’ roster.

Nice game for Maclin, HORRIBLE coaching by Tampa.

Eli 158.3 playing with an injury. Time to eat some CROW Pairface.

AAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!

Denver – New England! Did you see Josh McDaniels after that game! Heart & Soul baby! I’d give anything to see anyone on the Eagles with that kind of excitement! That kind of passion! AAAAHHHHHH!!!!!! I hated McDaniels when he got to Denver and shipped Cutler. Beef’d with Marshall. I was wrong. AAAAHHHHHH!!!! Gimme the guys with heart & passion against better talent and I will give you a win! AAAHHHHHHH!!!

StrongSide. The Giants are for real. Not just for real… FOR REAL. I hate it. I hate them. I even think I hate you. But goddamn, the Giants are no joke. Kill me for writing this.

So far so good, but the schedule is about to get a lot tougher.

Good for Dawkins. I love the emotion he brings to the game. I honestly thought he was done, but he obviously has something left in the tank.

Let’s see where Eli ends up at the end of the season – when it gets windy.

Pass defenses Eli has faced so far:

Washington (3rd)
Dallas (28th)
Tampa (20th)
Kansas City (29th)
Oakland (15th)

Eli has improved, but let’s not get carried away yet. He hasn’t exactly carved up the 2000 Ravens.

I will say his receivers are doing a better job than last year’s group. And their defense is stellar. They are looking like the best overall team in the NFL right now. But let’s see this team play with a little adversity before crowning as the best team. Eli came through 2 years ago. But he has also folded in several other big spots.

Pairface. I know they haven’t played anyone. But I’ve always said that Eli isn’t shit without lofting the ball up to Plax. Defense? Check. Run game? Check. (Jacobs is a jerkoff) WRs? It sucks to say it, Smith & Co. are for real. Have they played a good team? No. But I base a lot of what I do on my gut. My gut tells me the current WR crew are better than Plax & Toomer. Significantly better. I hope Im wrong. I sooooooo hope Im wrong. Please tell me Im wrong!!! Pairface – PLEEEEEASE! Tell me Im wrong!

Again, I’m not saying anything one way or the other. I liked NYG’s chances going into the season. They have an ELITE defense, and a killer running game. The young receivers stepping up seems to have completed their squad. Contrary to StrongSide’s assertion, I didn’t make any predictions on Eli’s season this year. I thought his numbers would go down somewhat without Plaxico, but that hasn’t been the case so far.

But the question is can Eli do it for a whole season? His QB rating and NFL rank the last 4 years:
2008: 86.4 (14th)
2007: 73.9 (25th) This was NYG’s Super Bowl year
2006: 77.0 (18th)
2005: 75.9 (23rd)

Compare this to the QB he was traded for, Phillip Rivers:
2008: 105.5 (1st)
2007: 82.4 (18th)
2006: 92.0 (8th)
2005: Did not start (Brees)

So a guy who got on the field over a year after Manning has outperformed him the past 3 seasons. The Giants also gave up the pick that turned into Shawne Merriman for Eli. How good would the Giants be if that trade never took place?

In addition, here are Eli’s passer ratings from the 1st 4 games last year:
vs. Washington: 61.1
@ St. Louis: 131.4
Cincinnati: 88.2
Seattle: 136.6
Average: 104.3

So he started well against a soft 1st quarter of the schedule last year and ended 14th in passing, so it’s not out of the question that Eli comes back to Earth. He is definitely more consistent this year. But he should be – HE WAS THE FIRST PICK IN HIS DRAFT CLASS! If his numbers hold up, it will be the FIRST season where Eli has lived up to his draft position.

Peyton was also a #1 overall pick. Who has received more value – the Colts or the Giants???

Sorry, but Eli is better than Rivers. He is a better game manager. His numbers would also be a lot better if he played the majority of his games in a dome or in a climate like S.D..

Big Ben is better than Rivers is.

Does Eli need to play better down the stretch? Sure he does, but his stats get better every season, and he is the CORNERSTONE of the GIANTS.

Eli also well on his way to his 5th 20 plus TD season. Not a big feat? Big Ben has done it once Rivers has done it three times. Your boy number 5 has done it four times in 10 years in a pass heavy offense.

Eli is better than Rivers??? Based on what…the 1st 5 games of this season??? Eli may play for the better TEAM, but as individual players, Rivers has been BETTER than Eli to this point. If Rivers had the Giants’ or Steelers’ defense, he would have the same team success.

Again, let’s see how the entire season unfolds before we anoint Eli as the greatest QB ever.

Let me ask you a question though. Would you be so high on Eli’s career if he was playing for someone other than NYG??? I’ve shown his career numbers to be somewhat mediocre to this point. If Rivers was QB for the Giants, would you still be saying how good of a “game manager” Eli is…or would you be pointing out that Rivers has the better numbers???

Career TD/INT ratios:

Eli: 108 TD, 76 INT, Ratio: 1.42
Rivers: 84 TD, 39 INT Ratio: 2.16
McNabb: 199 TD, 91 INT, Ratio: 2.19 <– I believe this number is top-10 all-time

There are always at least 2 sides to every statistic.

If only Eli was ever given an opportunity to play in a warm city climate like S.D…oh wait, never mind.

I’m in the same thought process as d3quinn. I’ve always been an Eli basher, but he’s slowly proving me wrong more and more each week. The defense and Jacobs are great, and Eli only needs to be average for the Giants to win, so far he’s been above average. Sure, it hasn’t been against the strongest defenses but you can only play the teams that are on your schedule. It’ll be interesting to see how he does in November and December when the weathers worse and the Meadowland winds are swirling around.

As far as Big Ben being better than Rivers, I don’t see it. I think Ben is very overrated. I have no problem saying that hes a great game manager, and is a great player for his role in Pittsburgh (Strong defense, historically run first on offense. The QB doesn’t need to put up Peyton-like numbers for his team to be successful), but in terms of being stacked up against others QBs in the league and I don’t think I can even put him in the Top 8.

It’s funny how the rest of the team gets all of the credit when the GIANTS are doing well, but Eli takes all of the heat when they struggle. Calling him an average QB is laughable at this point.

I’ll take Eli over every QB in the NFL not named Peyton Manning, Drew Brees or Tom Brady. Big Ben is comparable.

This is a young season and the GIANTS have a tough game this week in New Orleans. Eli has been absolutely OWNED by Darren Sharper in the past, so it will be interesting to see how he performs.

“The defense and Jacobs are great”

How many GIANTS games have you watched this season? Jacobs has not been “great”, but Bradshaw has.

Well StrongSide, the Giants did win the SB 2 years ago with a hellacious pass rush, a 3-headed monster at RB, and a miracle catch from “Pro Bowler” David Tyree. (BTW, is he still unemployed?). It wasn’t Eli carving up opposing defenses. He managed his way through that playoff run, and made some plays along the way.

But the question is, could another QB do what Eli did, given the same set of circumstances? Based on Eli’s INDIVIDUAL numbers, I would say that there are several QB’s that could. Eli is off to a great start this year, so I’m not going to take that away from him. But over the past 4 full seasons, his QB ranks were 14th, 25th, 18th and 23rd. That averages out to a rank of 20th. With 32 starters in the league, 20th out of 32 is BELOW AVERAGE.

So if he has truly taken a step forward this year, that’s great for NYG fans like yourself…but it’s also at least 2 years late, considering the price the Giants paid for him.

You still haven’t answered my question from earlier: Would you be such an Eli fan if he was playing somewhere else??? I guess you avoided it because we already know the answer. You would not. You would be cheerleading for whoever was QBing your team, be it Rivers, Big Ben, or someone else.

<<>>

That’s a bit lower than you had Eli in the off-season, when you stated only Brady and Peyton were better. I would put Roethlisberger ahead of Eli, as well as Rivers. I would say Cutler and Palmer are comparable. If age was no object, I would put Warner, Favre and McNabb in the discussion. And as 2nd year starters go, I would say Ryan, Flacco and Rodgers are all ahead of where Eli was as a 2nd year starter.

“Would you be such an Eli fan if he was playing somewhere else??? I guess you avoided it because we already know the answer. You would not. You would be cheerleading for whoever was QBing your team, be it Rivers, Big Ben, or someone else.”

More what if’s.

Based off of his Super Bowl run and MVP, Yes I would be. I was not a huge fan of Big Ben until his second Super Bowl run and performance. That last drive was incredible. Being clutch in the final 2 mins of a game is what it is all about. Peyton, Eli, Brady and Big Ben have all proved to me that they can play clutch in HUGE games and drive their team down the field when the BIG ONE is on the line.

“Rivers has been BETTER than Eli to this point. If Rivers had the Giants’ or Steelers’ defense, he would have the same team success.”

2007 & 2008 Playoffs Rivers is on teams loaded with Pro Bolwers and does not deliver.

2008 – Chargers lose to Steelers 35-24. Rivers throws for 308 yards and 105.4 passer rating. Defense give up 35 points…is that on Rivers???

2007 – Chargers win WC round vs Titans, then AT Indy in divisional round. Rivers injures knee in that game, and plays AFCC game @ New England with torn ligament (and no LT). I may be mistaken, but I read somewhere that torn ligaments are bad.

I can play this game, too:

2008 – Eli leads 12-4 defending SB champion Giants into playoffs, but throws for 169 yards and 40.7 rating.

You are attempting to muddy the waters by injecting team accomplishments into a discussion about individual players.

“Rivers has been BETTER than Eli to this point. If Rivers had the Giants’ or Steelers’ defense, he would have the same team success.”

You brought this up not me.

2007 & 2008 Playoffs not seasons fella.

“2007 – Chargers win WC round vs Titans, then AT Indy in divisional round. Rivers injures knee in that game, and plays AFCC game @ New England with torn ligament (and no LT). I may be mistaken, but I read somewhere that torn ligaments are bad.”

Excuses, he had Turner and Sproles on that team and still failed to deliver because he is not a gamer.

2006 Season 14-2 61 Sack Defense 16 Int.

Epic FAIL performance from Rivers against the Patriots.

You are giving the entire GIANTS team credit than calling the “cornerstone” of the team average.

Your beat, sorry.

River has talent, there is no doubt about it, but he is not Eli or Big Ben. When he LEADS his team to a Super Bowl I will give him his credit. So far he has been the weak spot on his team in the Playoffs when it matters most.

That 2007 Playoff run when they were coming off of a 14-2 season was just Epic fail. That team had a nasty defense and they were loaded on offense. He was MISERABLE in that game. 42 Rating I think.

“Your beat, sorry.”

Why, because you say so? Because that’s all you can do. No facts or figures to support your claim. Just reach for terms like “game manager” and claim victory…good strategy.

BTW, next time you try to claim victory, perhaps you could do so correctly. It’s “YOU’RE beat…”, retard.

Rivers has suspect playoff performances on his resume, and he has some good ones, just like Eli. The Chargers’ D never played lights out like the Giants did in 2007. LT also turned in some below-average performances, so there is plenty of blame to go around in San Diego (Did I mention balls-in-his-belly Schottenheimer yet?). But in the full seasons that Rivers and Eli have started, Rivers has been BETTER, and the numbers support that.

And from 2005 to 2008, Eli has been an AVERAGE QB. Again, the numbers support this 100%. No top-10 years in there. His team won a ring. But the other areas of that team played bigger roles than Eli did. Indisputable.

And if the Giants don’t hold Brady and that pinball offense to 14 points in the SB, Eli never gets his chance in the 4th quarter, and the Tyree helmet catch means nothing. That’s why football is the ultimate team game, because the team has to get the player in a position to make plays.

Maybe, someday you will see some of this through your Eli pom-poms.

Can we go out for drinks and discuss this? I would love to see a little Dim v. Gary in person…First round is on me!

Pairface,

You must have a lot of respect for Romo. He was #5 QB in 2006 & 2007, and #8 in 2008.

Would you take Romo over Eli and/or Rivers?

BTW, next time you try to claim victory, perhaps you could do so correctly. It’s “YOU’RE beat…”, retard.

Totally realized I made that error after I walked away from the computer. Worth calling me a retard over it? What are you 5? That’s how children act in defeat, they start the name calling which is what you do every time I come up with the facts. It’s this simple child.

How many rings does Rivers have?

“Rivers has suspect playoff performances on his resume, and he has some good ones, just like Eli.”

No, Eli has a Super Bowl run and MVP trophy and Rivers has nothing but a pairface basket full of excuses.

That Chargers team would have made a Super Bowl run if Rivers doesn’t fall flat on his face. The Chargers Defense forced 3 turnovers and shut down the Patriots run game, L.T. had a MONSTER game (even Turner scored) and Rivers goes 14-32-230-0-1 for a rating of 55.46. HE was the WEAK link that day. If Rivers plays AVERAGE on that day, they win the game.

“The Chargers’ D never played lights out like the Giants did in 2007.”

Funny reference considering that is Merriman’s moniker…LOL. The Chargers defense was pretty “hellacious” in 2006. I already posted their 61 sacks and 16 ints.

I will be the first to give Rivers his credit when he wins a bowl and collects the Super Bowl MVP trophy. Truth is, he is learning how hard it is to win without a Hall of Fame RB at his side. If he does I will reevaluate my opinion on the three, but I just can’t play the “what if” game that you LOVE to. The FACTS show Big Ben – 2 Eli – 1 Rivers – 0.

In the end the 2004 QB class may be the best of All Time.

There is a major problem when the number of super bowl rings determines if a player is better than another when comparing head to head stats, especially when one of the players involved is only in his 4th season starting. I mean seriously, if Peyton doesn’t win the SB a couple years ago would anyone say that Eli was a better quarterback because he has a ring?

“I mean seriously, if Peyton doesn’t win the SB a couple years ago would anyone say that Eli was a better quarterback because he has a ring?”

Why did you pick Peyton and use the “What if” argument? Peyton is still playing and is a 1st ballot Hall of Famer.

“There is a major problem when the number of super bowl rings determines if a player is better than another when comparing head to head stats”

Not when you are talking about a franchise QB.

“There is a major problem when the number of super bowl rings determines if a player is better than another when comparing head to head stats”

You want a name, DAN MARINO. When you say his name the first response you get is LOSER, and I hate it. “Couldn’t win the big one” is another common response. Ask Dan Marino if he would trade all of the records and stats for a Lombardi and a Super Bowl MVP trophy. Most common comparison, I’d take Montana over him.

Before Peyton Manning won the Super Bowl and was named MVP of the game, he was referred to as a choke artist and a Marino clone. Can’t win the big one. This was all while he was smashing NFL passing records. Before winning the Bowl P. Manning was referred to as LOSER. Most common comparison, I’d take Brady over him.

Rivers is no Marino or Manning, and he NEVER will be.

Want to play the what if game?

What if Plaxico doesn’t shoot himself in the leg?

The GIANTS go 16-0, play Philadelphia, Arizona, and Pittsburgh (all teams they beat in the regular season) in the playoffs. Eli wins his second Lombardi trophy and MVP and draws comparisons to Montana.

What if…..What if…..What if.

Correction..The Giants go 15-1.

“Worth calling me a retard over it? What are you 5? ”

Actually, 5-year-olds claim victory on internet threads. Looking at this thread, I don’t see people rushing to support your point of view on this issue, so I’m not sure how you are so sure that you are winning.

You’re wrapping your argument in the Super Bowl discussion like Eli went out there and won the Lombardi by himself. Maybe if he put up a 350 yard, 3TD, 140 passer rating in that game, you might have a point. But the fact is he didn’t have such a game, just a drive where Asante Samuel drops a sure INT, and then Tyree catches one off his head. Apparently, that is your criteria for immortality. LUCK had as much to do with that win as Eli did, and the Giants DEFENSE had even MORE to do with it.

Cherry-picking one playoff performance from Rivers is almost as unbalanced as making Eli to be the conquering hero you portray him as. Both guys have playoff duds on their resume.

And are you really putting Eli ahead of Dan Marino??? Dan Marino is one of the all-time great QB’s, Super Bowl win or not. Eli couldn’t hold Marino’s jock.

If Eli is better than Marino because he has a Super Bowl ring, then Trent Dilfer, Jeff Hostetler, Doug Williams, Brad Johnson and Jim Plunkett are all ahead of Marino, too. In fact, your logic dictates that Plunkett is twice as good as Eli, because he has TWO rings.

“And are you really putting Eli ahead of Dan Marino??? Dan Marino is one of the all-time great QB’s, Super Bowl win or not. Eli couldn’t hold Marino’s jock.”

I never said Eli was better than Marino. Nice try. I am a HUGE fan of Marino, and hate when people call him a loser.

6SBR – I don’t consider Mr. September at all in any discussion about top QBs. Maybe a couple of years ago, when there wasn’t a book on him. But he takes choking to epic heights.

“I never said Eli was better than Marino. Nice try. I am a HUGE fan of Marino, and hate when people call him a loser.”

OK, so you don’t like it when people call Marino a loser for not winning a Super Bowl…but you’re knocking Rivers for not winning a Super Bowl. Can YOU even follow your logic at this point???

One side of your argument might be winning, but the other side is definitely losing.

“OK, so you don’t like it when people call Marino a loser for not winning a Super Bowl…but you’re knocking Rivers for not winning a Super Bowl. Can YOU even follow your logic at this point???

One side of your argument might be winning, but the other side is definitely losing.”

So you think Rivers is as good or better than Marino. If Rivers was putting up the numbers Peyton is I would agree that Rivers is better than E.Manning, BUT HE ISN’T!!!!!!!!

“So you think Rivers is as good or better than Marino. If Rivers was putting up the numbers Peyton is I would agree that Rivers is better than E.Manning, BUT HE ISN’T!!!!!!!!”

No, I don’t think that Rivers is anywhere near Marino. But you bringing Marino into the discussion was a big mistake, because it serves MY SIDE of the debate, not yours. Marino is the ultimate example of a player that is great without a Super Bowl ring. He put up crazy numbers, and is immortalized in the HoF for his career. To a lesser extent, you can add names like Jim Kelly, Warren Moon & Fran Tarkenton to that list.

On the flip side, lesser players like the guys I mentioned before, HAVE won the Super Bowl, and none of them had HoF careers. Plunkett is the only QB with 2 or more rings that is not in the HoF.

So all of this goes to show that Super Bowls are not really a good judge of individual players, because mediocre QBs have won them, and GREAT QBs have not. To this point in their careers, just about all of the individual numbers favor Rivers over Eli (this is subject to change in the future). But you hold the Super Bowl up as the reason Eli is better than Rivers. Here is your quote:

“I will be the first to give Rivers his credit when he wins a bowl and collects the Super Bowl MVP trophy.”

Dan Marino doesn’t meet that criteria…Jim Plunkett does. However, any rational football fan would put Marino (way) ahead of Eli, but put Eli ahead of Plunkett.

Are you still winning???

YOU’RE BEAT!!

What if? What if? What if?

What if you ended up in a sock, this debate would not exist.

Sorry “StongSide”, but you are OWNED again. All I have to do to debate you is hang around, and let out JUST enough rope for you to hang yourself with. Bringing Dan Marino to the table was a fatal mistake on your part. That was almost as good as the time you offered to call the Green Bay Packers front office to confirm that Reggie White retired as a Packer. Remember that??? Good times…good times.

You can’t even spell your own name right. BTW, it might be time for a new one, right BigBlue???

Your jokes are as stale as your flawed logic. Time for some new ones Sock dweller.

You thinking Rivers is the next Marino exposes your flawed logic. Marino was brought up because some still view him as a loser even though his numbers suggest otherwise. Rivers was a top pick and has delivered nothing as of today. He is nice player but isn’t even as good as the QB that he replaced (Brees). Rivers is not on pace to set any records and the Chargers are going nowhere fast with him.

So you show me a player who has done NOTHING and tell me he is better than a player that wins games, engineers 4th qts comebacks a la Elway, Montana and Favre, is a Super Bowl MVP and is 19-5 in his last 24 games. Your argument is a joke. Your support your sock wielding logic with what ifs and excuses.

Sock dweller??? And my jokes are stale???

This is getting pretty sad. I’d feel pity for you if I didn’t find it so GD funny.

Sock it to Me!!

But over the past 4 full seasons, his QB ranks were 14th, 25th, 18th and 23rd. That averages out to a rank of 20th. With 32 starters in the league, 20th out of 32 is BELOW AVERAGE.

This is your agrument against Eli. I use the same logic with Romo and you said:

“I don’t consider Mr. September at all in any discussion about top QBs. Maybe a couple of years ago, when there wasn’t a book on him. But he takes choking to epic heights.”

You like to have your cake and eat it too???? Flip-Flop. Lets try to be consistant.

Romo has the 4th highest All Time career QB rating. So according to Flip Flops with Socks Romo will be enshrined into the Hall of Fame.

Not a good look the last time I checked fella.

http://www.pollsb.com/photos/o/25141-socks_sandals_opinion.jpg

6SBRS – If you think Romo is better than Eli & Rivers, that’s your call. I don’t share that opinion, but you’re welcome to it. If you want to apply my logic as your basis, be my guest. I think there are mitigating factors that keep Romo out of the mix. My comparison was Rivers v. Eli, not Rivers v. Eli v. Romo. But Romo could end up better than both Rivers and Eli if he ever got the right combination of personnel and coaching. He certainly doesn’t have that right now.

And HYS, you are a blithering idiot at this point. Anyone that goes looking for photos like that on the internet might just have some issues. I hope everything works out for you.

“And HYS, you are a blithering idiot at this point.”

Sorry Miss Flip Flop with Socks, but you support you arguments with no facts, just what ifs. You stubbornly use the QB rating as the base for your argument, but say is only applies to certain players. Your logic is flawed like your style (socks with Flip Flops).

2 mins left in the 4th qtr. My team is down by 4 points. Who would I take as my QB. 1- Peyton Manning 2-Tom Brady 3a-Eli Manning 3b-Big Ben.

I gave you plenty of facts…you just chose to ignore them. If Rivers’ numbers were better than Eli’s in some respects, but Eli’s were better in others, then a tie would obviously go to the Super Bowl winner. But Rivers’ numbers are better across the board than Eli (passer rating, YPG, YPA, TD/INT ratio), so it’s not just one number. You have hung on to the Super Bowl win every bit as much as I’ve hung on to the stats. But I’ve given several examples of HoF QB’s that didn’t win the SB, and crappy ones that did. So that metric is pretty much useless when judging an individual.

And you’re one to talk about flip-flops. You talk about giving someone credit when they win the SB and the SB MVP…and then you bring up Dan Marino. What do you call that???

Eli has shown improvement the last couple of years, and if he continues to improve, that’s great for you. But he’s not the untouchable you make him out to be. If Rivers is not better than Eli in your mind, you would have to admit that they are close, based on Rivers’ superior numbers. The fact that the Chargers came away with both Manning and Merriman makes San Diego the easy winner of that trade.

This thread is now boring me, and I’ve said my peace.

Nice try again. More hot garbage. Numbers…LOL. Not Yardage and TDs your cute little bullshit numbers that you chose to include. You full of shit fella and so is your logic. Septic Tank is your new moniker.

Find grammatical errors you can go tell the teacher about child? In the words of Ocho Cinco “CHILD PLEASE”!

Good comebacks.

“More hot garbage. Numbers…LOL. Not Yardage and TDs your cute little bullshit numbers that you chose to include.”

Yardage and TDs??? Let’s see:

Eli:
78 games
108 TDs (1.38 TDs/game)
15,835 yards (203.0 yards/game)

Rivers:
56 games
84 TDs (1.50/game)
11,942 yards (213.3 yards/game)

Well, what do you know? Rivers comes out ahead in both stats. What a shocker. What about INTs…are you at least curious???

Eli: 76 INTs (0.97/game)
Rivers: 39 INTs (0.70/game)

Wow…looks like a clean sweep for Rivers. And these numbers INCLUDE Eli’s red-hot start to 2009.

But hey, feel free to track down some septic tank photos to post, clown. That will settle the debate.

Players both drafted in 2004. Eli ready to play before Rivers.

Eli:
108 TDs
15,835 yards
Lombardi Trophy: 1
Super Bowl MVP: 1

Wins: 51

Rivers:
84 TDs
11,942 yards
Lombardi Trophy: 0
Super Bowl MVP: 0

Wins: 36

Looks like Eli has Rivers BEAT to me.

Septic logic again. You pull up stats per-game because Rivers wasn’t ready to play as fast as Eli was.

Pairface,

I am not saying romo is better. I am just applying your logic of qb rating. You are using it against eli.

Also, as you clearly stated against eli “do not get team vs individual accomplishments confused”. Based on that, why do not hold the cowboys lack of playoff success only on romo? The team lost the game. Compare individual stats just like with your anti-eli comments.

“Septic logic again. You pull up stats per-game because Rivers wasn’t ready to play as fast as Eli was.”

Not Rivers’ fault that the Chargers had a good starting QB already in place and the Giants did not. Stats per game is how you judge a QBs numbers. On a per game basis, Rivers throws for MORE yards, MORE TDs, and LESS INTs. All of this results in a BETTER passer rating for Rivers.

Of course you would prefer TOTAL yards and TD’s…because Eli has played MORE games. Per game numbers are the fair way to judge. Who produces more in an average 60-minute football game??? Rivers does.

Miss. Septic Flip Flops with Socks is going to tell you that Romo’s Rating does not apply because he chokes in the playoffs.

“Of course you would prefer TOTAL yards and TD’s…because Eli has played MORE games. Per game numbers are the fair way to judge.”

No, it isn’t. If a player is not ready to play in the NFL it is on him. If a player is injured, it is also on him. Playing in less games counts against a players reputation.

If both players careers ended tomorrow, Rivers would be forgotten and Eli wouldn’t.

6SBR – I never said or implied that Romo was the sole reason for the Cowboys’ lack of playoff success. He’s played his part, but there’s plenty of blame to go around. The coaching has been horrible (especially with Wade as HC), the personnel has been suspect, and the owner is a weak GM. Jerry Jones probably has the most to do with it, because he has the power to make any change he wants. The Roy Williams trade is already beginning to look a little suspect. Jerry could have chosen to not pull the trigger on the Williams deal, drafted a WR like Harvin, Nicks or Britt, and still have those other picks to use elsewhere. Now, Williams will have to produce like TO did, or the trade becomes a bust for Jones. I guess it could still happen. But it’s off to a slow start.

“No, it isn’t. If a player is not ready to play in the NFL it is on him. If a player is injured, it is also on him.”

Now I’ve heard everything. This is why I don’t respect your football knowledge AT ALL. It’s a player’s fault for being injured??? Where do you come up with this shit???

Excuse me, but did STEVE YOUNG get to the Hall of Fame??? How many years did he back up Montana??? The answer is FOUR, MORON!!! So was Steve Young not ready to play, or was it the fact that Montana was there???

Starting right away doesn’t always mean you’re ready to play in the NFL. The Giants threw Eli in early because Kurt Warner was stinking up the joint, not because Eli was so great. Eli finished 2005 with a 48% completion rate, and a 55.4 rating…is that “ready to play”?

“Playing in less games counts against a players reputation.”

Barry Sanders could have played 4 or more sesons when he retired. Is he any less great?

Terrell Davis’ career was cut short at least 3 or 4 years. Does that take away from what he did?

Jim Brown retired early. Is he not considered one of the greatest players of all time?

Jim Kelly started his career in the USFL. Does that count against him???

Derrick Thomas DIED…Is that on him???

“Now I’ve heard everything. This is why I don’t respect your football knowledge AT ALL. It’s a player’s fault for being injured??? Where do you come up with this shit???”

Who loses most when a player gets hurt? The player. Terrell Davis would already be in the Hall if is career was not cut short. Barry Sanders and Jim Brown played the game for 10 YEARS at the RB position I’m not sure where you are going with that one.

Comparing Rivers to Steve Young is hilarious, you should consider becoming a jester. Let me guess, Brees is Monatna..LMAO!

I don’t see them taking Bo Jacksons averages and throwing him in the Hall of Fame.

Derrick Thomas drove his car off of the road while speeding through a snowstorm and he did not have his seatbelt on. Sad, but yeah that is on him.

When a players career ends short because of injury or death, they do not take “averages” into consideration.

Being durable and consistently available to your team is one of the greatest achievements in sports. A lot of players skills diminish because of their lack of preparation and will to put in the hard work it takes to be ELITE.

Rivers has A LOT to prove. He put up impressive numbers last year, but his immaturity gets the best of him and it shows.

“Comparing Rivers to Steve Young is hilarious, you should consider becoming a jester. Let me guess, Brees is Monatna..LMAO!”

This sentence demonstrates why you’ll NEVER get it. I didn’t compare Rivers to Young, or Brees to Montana. The point was that players that play behind other players for a year…or even FOUR years, can still go on to HoF careers, or even very good careers. Of course, that went right by you.

I’m also not talking about Eli or Rivers in regards to the HoF. I’m using the data that is already on-hand to compare the 2 players. Neither player is near the HoF at the moment. So the only way to measure each player to this point is to compare Eli’s starts and Rivers’ starts. Eli has MORE starts than Rivers…but Rivers has BETTER starts than Eli. Again, to THIS point in time…not next year, not 5 years from now, not 20 years from now. Of course, Eli has the Lombardi. But that measure has already proven to be flawed. Perhaps, looking purely at stats also has its flaws. So the truth may be somewhere in the middle. But you can’t put Eli ahead of Rivers if EVERY individual stat favors Rivers.

I’m not as well versed in football knowledge as everyone here, but I want to comment. Pair, don’t you have to look at Eli v. Rivers playoff stats too?

Sure, you can look at those stats. But then you’re talking about a sample of 6 to 8 games vs 56 to 78 games. The bigger the sample size, the more reliable the data.

“Sure, you can look at those stats. But then you’re talking about a sample of 6 to 8 games vs 56 to 78 games. The bigger the sample size, the more reliable the data.”

They both average out to about an 82 rating in the playoffs. but Eli’s TD/INT Ratio is better. Throw in the Super Bowl run and Eli edges out Rivers in the post-season.

So the question is. At the end of the day who do you want as your QB?

The QB with the better rating and TD/INT ratio or The QB with More Yards and TDs who has gone on a Super Bowl run and is a better performer in the playoffs?

“Sure, you can look at those stats. But then you’re talking about a sample of 6 to 8 games vs 56 to 78 games. The bigger the sample size, the more reliable the data.”

Look up, because the dirt is about to shower you in the grave you just dug for yourself. Eliminating playoff “data” completely dismisses you from the argument.

According to you Tony Romo is going to be a 1st ballot Hall of Famer. He is in the top 5 in career passer rating, and since you have decided to eliminate playoff performances, Romo becomes one of the best QBs to ever play the game.

Here lies Miss. Septic Flip Flops with Socks. PAWNED by Strong-Side-Blitz, assisted by 6SBRS and LetsGoMets, on 10-15-2009.

R.I.P.

OK, dude. If Eli is such a playoff performer, how come he has only won playoff games in ONE playoffs? What did Eli do LAST YEAR in the playoffs? Mr. “Super Bowl MVP” shit a colossal BRICK in the playoffs – 169 yards, 52% completion rate – 40.7 PASSER RATING. How can that be???

I’m not eliminating the playoffs. I gave Eli credit for his part in the Super Bowl up and down this thread. Outside of that season, Eli has done little in the playoffs, especially last year’s turd.

If there’s a site that keeps career playoff stats, I’d post them. ESPN and NFL.com do not keep them, only game logs. Looking at the game logs, Eli has 4 wins, all coming in 2007, and Rivers has 3 wins, 2 in 2007, 1 in 2008. Both players have 2 playoff games with 100+ ratings. Rivers has 1 game under 70 and 1 under 60. Eli has 1 under 50. If I had an hour to total them up, and put them in with the regular season numbers, I’d be willing to bet Rivers still comes out ahead.

PAWNED??? What was I PAWNED for??? Something good I hope.

“They both average out to about an 82 rating in the playoffs. but Eli’s TD/INT Ratio is better. Throw in the Super Bowl run and Eli edges out Rivers in the post-season.”

I totaled the numbers from http://www.pro-football-reference.com (Your Welcome). Like I said. They are about even at aprox. an 82 rating.

Again:

At the end of the day who do you want as your QB?

The QB with the better rating and TD/INT ratio or The QB with More Yards and TDs who has gone on a Super Bowl run and is a better performer in the playoffs?

“They both average out to about an 82 rating in the playoffs. but Eli’s TD/INT Ratio is better”

If they have the same rating, then they are SIMILAR performers in the playoffs. If Eli has a better TD/INT ratio, then Rivers either has a better completion percentage and/or more yards, because the passer rating statistic is a composite of attempts, completions, yards, TDs and INTs. Therefore, Eli is NOT the better playoff performer…the Giants are.

BTW, PFR lists Rivers as 79.2 passer rating in the playoffs, and Manning 77.6. I missed another playoff dud from Eli’s 2005-2006 season, where Carolina won 23-0, and Eli had a passer rating of 35.0. This gives Eli TWO playoff games with a passer rating under 50. My bad.

“At the end of the day who do you want as your QB?”

I want the QB that produces more on a consistent basis. Eli had one good playoff run, and flamed out 2 of the other 3 years he was there (had decent numbers in 1 other loss). Rivers has a couple of good performances, and a couple of duds in the playoffs. But in every other statistical measure over their careers, Rivers comes out ahead. I give credit to Eli for performing very good late in some games. But the passer rating judges all 60 minutes of a game, not just the last 2.

YOU’RE welcome.

P.S. – PFR does have a good “Splits” function (Not quite as good as MLB.com, but not bad). Romo’s disqualification is summed up perfectly under his December numbers.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RomoTo00/splits/

Eli’s Decembers are not much better. In fact, his passer rating drops each month of the season, except for one January game.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannEl00/splits/

I’m not sure if everyone missed the whole idea of this thread, but LetsGoMets said he will by the first round. I defiantly want to watch these two window lickers at a bar debating over football. If we could get 6SBR in town also it would be epic. I would even buy the second round. If we are still calling people names I think DMan is nose picking spazz.

Here is a little riddle for you Pairface. I’ll give you 10 points if you can figure it out. What are the first three letters in the word Elite?

(Thank You Dan Benton from Giants101)

“I’m not sure if everyone missed the whole idea of this thread, but LetsGoMets said he will by the first round. I defiantly want to watch these two window lickers at a bar debating over football. If we could get 6SBR in town also it would be epic. I would even buy the second round. If we are still calling people names I think DMan is nose picking spazz.”

It’s like LetsGoMets said, we would probably get along famously. I love talking football with the guy. He knows his shit. The name calling is all in good fun.

HYS, I mean SSB, gets 2 points with just his LOTW hitting, Dave gets 3 points with the LOTW and big Miami 4th quarter win, DMan with 1 point from the NYG win, TFrey with 1 point from the Atlanta blow out, EMoney with 2 underdogs coming out for 3 points., and Terry getting 3 points with his first LOTW hit. Here are the new totals:

Dave 13 (4-1)
DMan 11 (3-2)
TFrey 11 (3-2)
SSB 9 (3-1)
EMoney 9 (2-3)
Terry 5 (1-1)
(LOTW Record)

I’m up for that. I would happily put 6SBR in a dumpster for another free round.

Let’s do the meet – I’ll buy rounds 4 and 5 (we’ll have to play Dodge City for the next 15) – Let’s pick a place, I’ll bring the mics and Dave will moderate.

Saturday before the first Eagles/Giants game?

Sounds like fun to me. Drinking Brews and talking football.

I think that is Halloween. I have a 30th to attend that night.

Halloween won’t work for me, either. I have a 2-year-old that is already wearing her costume around the house. Sometime that week before Eagles/Giants would be the way to go, though.

Maybe pairface would finally pay me the 100 from a bet a few years ago.he is a deadbeat.

Tell you what 6SBR, If you make it back, I got a brand-new Franklin with your name on it.

BTW – you do recall my offline offer to settle, no???

I am getting old. Refresh my memory.

You e-mailed me last year looking for a friend’s address and/or phone number (CC in Colorado) because you were going to be in that neck of the woods. I offered to pay you at that time. Ring a bell at all???

“Here is a little riddle for you Pairface. I’ll give you 10 points if you can figure it out. What are the first three letters in the word Elite?”

Not to beat the proverbial dead horse…but your boy has not exactly held up your end of this debate lately. What’s going on with Mr. Elite???

“Not to beat the proverbial dead horse…but your boy has not exactly held up your end of this debate lately. What’s going on with Mr. Elite???”

Piss poor performance all around last night. Eli was erratic, but his receivers were not getting open and were dropping balls. Terrible throw by Eli on the final drive.

The Bradshaw fumble KILLED them.

It was more than the Bradshaw fumble that KILLED them. The OL was shotty at best. The Saints, and now the Cards, have shown the NFL the blueprint to beating the Giants. Blitz often and stop the run. Eli was running for his life last night. The cards are starting to crumb.

BTW – how many lucky bounces can Eli get? The second TD was very lucky.

For all the hype surrounding the NFC East this year, it looks as if the balance of power has shifted elsewhere. The Saints are the class of the NFC right now, and I would probably rate the Vikings ahead of any team in the division. The Cards are also very good. The East could still win one or both Wild Cards, but right now, there is a considerable gap opened up between the NFC East and the top of the NFL.

What a fantastic game for debut MLB Witherspoon. Jackson also had a HUGE impact in the game. According to him he is UMPOSSIBLE to cover.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xK8TfzKEO7E

Jackson and Witherspoon looked good, but another sub-par effort from McNabb. I have defended him to the hilt. He is the best QB in franchise history. But I am tiring of his performances. He is missing wide open receivers. He underthrew Jackson by at least yards on the TD throw, almost causing an injury to Jackson.

I’m not necessarily calling for Kolb, but McNabb is going to have to do better if this team is to go anywhere this year. McNabb has cold spells every year, so hopefully this is it.

So true about McNabb. I thought he left way too many plays out there. How many balls did he throw short that bounced before they even hit the WR?

This debate is over – Eli SUCKS. He rode his defense all the way to the SB a couple years ago. But if the Giants defense is not leading the way, he does not get the job done.

He’ll have some more good stretches down the road, and he’ll win a few games in the 4th quarter. But he is wildly inconsistent, and is MILES from being ELITE.

If his last name was SMITH instead of MANNING, he’d be just another QB with a Super Bowl ring, like Dilfer.

Looking at the Giants up close for the 2nd time this year, their defense is a shell of what it was against the Cowboys in Week 1. It looks like Spagnuolo is missed very badly right now. That TD run from Weaver on the opening drive looked like slow motion.

Their offense is very vanilla. I like Hakeem Nicks on jump ball throws. But if the Giants can’t pound the ball with the running game, there’s no creativity in their playcalling.

The GIANTS are a BAD team collectively. From the QB play and play calling to the holes at Safety. The debate will be over when his career ends.